Kratom and Suboxone; Being ‘Clean’ and Recovery

On a message board called ‘opiophile’, a person wrote about being a long-term opiate addict, then taking methadone for a couple years, then going on Suboxone for a couple years.  He eventually stopped Suboxone, and had a miserable period of withdrawal… which never, by his recollection, ever totally went away.  He works for the Democratic Party (not secret info– it was in his post) and eventually used opiate agonists again (hydrocodone and oxycodone)… during his time in DC for the Obama inaugauration.  He described how wonderful he felt, experiencing the opiate sensations while at the same time ‘being part of history’.

He returned to normal, boring, miserable life… until discovering a source for ‘Kratom’.  Kratom is a plant imported from Thailand that has opiate and other effects;  like many other ‘exotics’ it has not yet been scheduled as illegal by the DEA.  My understanding is that it is hard to find in pure form, and can be expensive… there is also the risk of ingesting something (maybe toxic) that has been substituted for what you think you are using.

In his post, the person asked if he is ‘clean’– whatever that means.  I don’t mean to be difficult here– I just mean that being ‘clean’ is different to different people.  Some people consider themselves ‘clean’ as long as they avoid their ‘drug of choice’…. the use of marijuana not a concern as long as they are depriving themselves of the oxycontin that they REALLY want!  I don’t agree with that definition, but I can see the point of at least avoiding the things that are the most likely to cause problems.

He also asked if he was running the risk of returning to the same problems that have been a part of his life for many years.  I think the answer to that question is obvious to everyone reading this blog!  As for my other thoughts, I copied them below.

My Reply:

Kratom contains chemicals that includes mu receptor agonists– the chemicals do not show up (yet) in drug screens, but taking them is no different from activating mu receptors with anything else, legal or illegal. And the fact that Kratom is a plant should not make you think it is somehow ‘different'; if the chemicals in Kratom prove safe enough, they will eventually be extracted, identified, manufactured, and marketed in pill form– and will likely be DEA scheduled at that point.

Please read my article on the relationship between Suboxone and traditional recovery. I am aware of the anger some people have toward buprenorphine, but I think your case is the best argument for Suboxone that one can make.

You have had this endless malaise off opiates, and you seem to blame Suboxone (or if you don’t, I know that many people do– they use opiates for years, then go on Suboxone, then when they stop Suboxone they blame it for endless withdrawal symptoms). But the brain doesn’t work like that; tolerance occurs from agonist or partial agonist stimulation of a receptor, and the tolerance is reversible– at least on the ‘neuronal’ level. There is no reason that one drug, say buprenorphine, would cause a more ‘permanent’ state of tolerance than another drug.

I HAVE seen people with an almost permanent state of opiate withdrawal; I have not seen this so much in relation to specific drugs, as to their degree of ‘addiction’. Listening to your experience with opiates, one thing is clear– opiates are a huge part of your life. Even watching your dream candidate be inaugaurated is not ‘enough’ of a kick in life; you wanted more. In fact, by your description, I don’t know which would have been a bigger bummer– seeing someone else getting into the Presidency or being deprived of that ‘buzz’! I’m not taking ‘pot shots’ here–I’m trying to add some insight, and I hope you take it as intended. The ‘person’ that you have become… PERHAPS that person just cannot exist without some level of mu receptor activation. Perhaps that whole ‘psyche’ requires the pleasant warm fogginess of an opiate– and without that, the psyche is miserable. If that is the case, of course you will be miserable off opiates— whether the missing opiates are heroin, methadone, Kratom, or Suboxone. The problem is that at least with the first three of these agents, there is no way to take them without ever-increasing tolerance, which eventually leads to cravings, compulsive use, and greater misery.

We know without a doubt that SOME addicts do recover, most often by using a 12 step program. How do THEY do it? I see the answer as consistent with the idea of a ‘psyche’ that needs opiates vs one that doesn’t need opiates. People who ‘get’ the 12 step programs can live without opiates because they have become completely different people. Treating addiction, we know that a person who simply sees the treatment as ‘education’ is not going to do well; people really need to change who they ARE– completely!

To put it into math form: Person ‘A’ plus opiates = an intact person; Person ‘A’ minus opiates = a miserable person; Person ‘A’ + NA = Person ‘B’ = an intact person. Maybe this last bit was a bit over the top… but hopefully you see my point.

I realize that some people will just never ‘get’ NA or AA; the question is, can those people ever be happy without exogenous opiates? I should add that there are other recovery programs out there that do, or intend to do, something similar to AA and NA, without the religious dimension– I am including them in the same way as AA and NA, although I don’t know as much about them. But knowing what I know about addiction and recovery, I doubt ANY program will make an addict ‘intact’ through education alone; in all cases I would expect a requirement that the person change in some substantial way.

In my own opinion, the answer to the question is ‘no’– that a using addict, minus the object of use, without personality change, will always be miserable. Enter Suboxone… or more accurately, buprenorphine… and there now is a fourth option besides ‘sober recovery’, using (and misery), and ‘dry misery’. Buprenorphine provides a way to occupy mu receptors at a static level of tolerance, therefore preventing the misery that comes with chronic active addiction. And it allows a person to feel ‘intact’ without the need to change to a different person.

Buprenorphine fits well with the ‘disease model’ of addiction; the idea that an addict needs chronic medical treatment, and that if the treatment is stopped, the addiction becomes uncontrolled, resulting in either active use or in your case, miserable ‘sobriety’. As for those who are ‘purists’– who think that every addict needs to get off everything and live by the 12 steps– I am glad that works for you, and others likely will envy you. But note that many, if not MOST, opiate addicts in recovery will relapse at some point in life– maybe multiple times. Recovery programs are not ‘permanent'; they require ongoing attention and activity, or they tend to ‘wear off’. There is no ‘cure’ for addiction; we maintain addicts either through recovery programs, or now, through medication.

One final comment– I do know a person who was stable on Kratom for several years until suddenly going into status epilepticus with grand mal seizures over breakfast one day, in front of his wife and children. An extended work-up showed damage to multiple organ systems that seem to now be getting better after a couple years. The studies did not ever determine whether the organ damage came from the Kratom itself, or from some additive or pesticide used in Thailand. Use foreign substances at your own (substantial) risk!

Jeffrey T Junig MD PhD
Suboxone Talk Zone (dot com)

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3 thoughts on “Kratom and Suboxone; Being ‘Clean’ and Recovery”

  1. Wow! Your answere was powerfull and I agree with everything you said. One thing though was that I didn’t know methadone could not be taken without ever-increasing tolerance. I was on 40mg for 2 and a half years and was fine until I got locked up. I never felt the need to increase the dose.Thank you for your valuable time.

    Respectfully,

    Angelo

  2. I’ve been on Sub for about 7 months. I really hope I don’t get the lingering WD thing going on. I’ve gotten down to 3mgs recently and it’s actually not as bad as the internet says. I don’t know what factors make up Person A who is miserable without something like that but I haven’t used for years (3 months badly) so I hope that helps me.

  3. Dr. Junig, thanks for this post, it is one of the most insightful things I have ever read on the topic.